Episode 24: Turning Change Into Opportunity:
Keeping Employees Engaged

Host: [00:00:00] Welcome to Talent Talks, the L&D podcast about the future of work and the talent driving it forward. The world of work is changing fast from AI reshaping strategies to new definitions of success and the push for people-first mindsets, learning leaders are being asked to do more, do it better, and do it faster than ever before.

Together, let’s learn, relearn, and sometimes even unlearn what L&D can look like in today’s world. I’m your host, Gina Lionatos, and this is Talent Talks.

Talent Talks is brought to you by TalentLMS, the easy-to-use training platform that delivers real business results from day one. Learn more at [00:01:00] talentlms.com.

To kick off this brand new season of Talent Talks, we’re sitting down with Rob Catalano, Chief Engagement Officer at WorkTango. We’ll be examining L&D’s role in organizational change, how leaders can better engage their employees, and why the care we place in culture can transform the mindset of our workforce.

Stay with us.

Rob, welcome to Talent Talks. 

Rob Catalano: Hello, thanks for having me. 

Host: Super excited to have you with us today, Rob, to discuss all things related to employee engagement, particularly during times of change. You’ve been deep in the world of employee experience and HR for over two decades, so I’m sure you’ve seen a lot of change.

Rob Catalano: A hundred percent and it [00:02:00] doesn’t seem like it’s stopping anytime soon. 

Host: From your perspective, Rob, what’s different about this moment? How would you describe the kinds of changes that organizations are going through right now? 

Rob Catalano: Yeah, so I think there’s a number of changes where organizations are shifting from perks and pay to meaning and belonging in terms of how they try to engage employees or build that experience.

It’s less about how do we build this secure job structure of how you get to the top versus. Growth and learning and what people really want in their workplace. I think Office First has now become flex. You know what used to be uniform is now very flexible and it’s not about everyone has a path, it’s around what’s the right path for you as an individual and working on that.

So I think that the world is shifting just in general, but I think the question I ask myself is why, right? There are new generations in the workplace, there’s new technology to build that experience. There are business cases like we never had before in the data. So, you know, I could probably speak for the next hour on all the changes, but at a high level, those, those are things that come to mind.[00:03:00] 

Host: So I guess it sounds like the definition of a quote-unquote great workplace has definitely changed and shifted. So let’s dive into organizational change. This is the core theme of the new research report from TalentLMS and WorkTango, and it was great that our teams got to work together on this.

There’s a lot to unpack in the trends, but before we get into the data, let’s zoom out just a step in your experience, when companies go through big transformations, where does the disconnect usually happen between what leaders intend and what employees actually experience on the ground? 

Rob Catalano: How much time do you have?

There’s so much there, right? From a leadership perspective, change is exciting. It’s strategic, but from an employee’s level it’s confusing. From a leadership perspective, it’s all around. We’ve communicated it. We had a town hall, and employees are, well, what’s happening, right? There lacks the detail or the understanding of what led to this point, or even what that vision looks like.

I think leaders think it’s gonna empower people to grow. It’s gonna [00:04:00] empower the company and employees believe, well, it’s more work, right? It’s less control than what’s happening around me. And I think the list goes on, I think the one that really comes up is that leaders feel like morale is good and things are moving fast, and that’s what employees want, but employees are burnt out, right?

There’s a lot of change and anytime people go through change, that uncertainty breeds disengagement. It breeds that level of just disconnection to being a part of the journey versus the journey being done to you. So, you know, I think, um, leaders feel everyone’s on board with this change, but employees are still confused, right?

And, and there’s many reasons why we can dive into, but I think those are the major gaps that I see happen when it comes to these levels of change management initiatives or change in organizations. 

Host: Yeah. That gap between leadership, vision, and employee reality is so important. And you touched on the topic of uncertainty, and this is something we’re seeing more and more of, and it’s in fact one of the biggest challenges facing organizations right now.

Change no longer feels exciting for many employees. [00:05:00] It feels overwhelming, right? As you said as well, and in our recent survey, nearly two-thirds of employees said that change initiatives actually increased their anxiety. Is there a way that leaders can shift that mindset from uncertainty equals anxiety to one where change is associated with opportunity and growth?

Is there a world where that can happen? 

Rob Catalano: Yeah, I mean, there is a world, I’ve seen it, and I think it just comes down to approach. From my perspective, what I’ve seen successful is when we think about communication, or how do you make sure that’s not just this top-down, here’s what the organizational vision is.

Well, like, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with that term, WIFM, like, what’s in it for me? Well, what is in it for the employee base, the customers, how do those folks, which become before the company results, right? The company results are outputs. It’s only the inputs of what employees do every day. How do you make sure communication is great?

And I mean, you just referenced the survey. I think 52% of employees felt they weren’t communicated to at all when it came [00:06:00] to change systems. But communication is a two-way street. Like just telling employees what things are about is one part of the communication, but there has to be a feedback loop, right?

If you think about understanding what’s working in an employee experience, what isn’t? right In the study, 46% of employees said that no one even ask them. I always use this, uh, this one image when I talk about change management in companies and it talks about success isn’t linear, right? It’s not a straight line.

It goes through so many different turns and twists. I think many people just underestimate the emotional impact and the anxiety and burnout. So how is that being addressed? Is that being looked at or measured? And there’s so many other ways you can approach this, which I’m happy to share more details about.

But yeah, it’s a tough and meaty subject, but companies don’t give it the attention it deserves. 

Host: We will get into the meat and the grit of that a little bit later. But I did wanna share another, quite a stark stat from our study actually. Half of those surveyed said that their trust in company leadership had [00:07:00] been negatively affected by change, and it’s not really surprising considering that also only 27% of leaders think they have the training that they need to effectively lead change.

Why do you think majority of leaders are being overlooked when it comes to training? 

Rob Catalano: I think they’re overlooked in general. Right. We’ll, maybe we’ll talk more specifically about training in a moment, but what’s interesting is think about any company, and especially through change. At one side you have the strategic direction and division of the organization where it’s going. Then you have on the other end, you have employees do every day, and leaders sit in the middle, right? If they’re not part of it, if they’re not included, I call ‘em the most important cog in that wheel. If that cog doesn’t understand or can’t answer employees’ questions, the whole system falls apart.

So I think from an L&D perspective, um besides being forgotten, it has to be really intentional on how do you bring them into this loop? How do they be part of the process? And there are so many different ways that you can do it. [00:08:00] They often get forgotten, but it’s so much more important, especially through times of change.

Host: So what are some of the key ways that we can better equip leaders to make them more prepared and equipped to lead change? 

Rob Catalano: Um the one, I heard this quote somewhere and I don’t remember where it came from, but uh, it just came to me where L&D isn’t training. It’s change enablement. Like at the end of the day, like if you have the tools necessary to navigate through what’s happening, that’s really what L&D is all about.

We’re going through now in organizations on learning AI initiatives and skills, but a couple of things you can do is, one is build those change leadership capabilities. Too often we focus on training on how to use specific tools, but especially change emotional intelligence, psychological safety, communication, all the things to combat, um, what you just mentioned in terms of a lot of the burnout and anxiety that comes in these process.

Second is make space for conversations. I talk about this a lot with customers where you should have a rhythm where there is time for discussion [00:09:00] about this topic. There’s discussion with your other leader peers about what’s working with their teams or not. I always talk about if you don’t have a specific rhythm to enable leaders to make time for this and have the discussions and learn from each other, that’s gonna be really challenging.

I think a third thing that many companies should be doing is how do you surface insights to leaders? It’s easy to tell a leader, you should learn this skill and that skill, and you should do X, Y, and Z. But the moment you could see let’s, for example, the engagement of their teams or how that relates to the rest of the organization.

Now it’s a little bit real, right? It’s hard to refute data in terms of how their employees feel or their sentiments to anything, especially change. And then again, WorkTango we do that with our customers, right? We help measure employee experience. So we see this all the time. But it’s not just surfacing insight, it’s also giving them accountability to act.

Hey leaders, what are you doing differently with this transformation? How is this transformation impacting your team? I think the last thing I think is a really important thing to do is [00:10:00] what we mentioned earlier. How do you make leaders part of that strategic partnership in the organization? Like that cog WorkTango is going through right now.

We’re going through huge transformation with leveraging new AI technology and the way we work internally in our product. We have our senior leadership team and our middle leadership team who are lockstep. We built the rhythm around it and make sure that’s part of the conversation. But those are just three or four examples of just prescriptive things you could do tomorrow to really include leaders in this challenge, I’d say in general, but especially through change.

Host: Yeah, I love what you said actually about senior leadership and mid-level leadership working in lockstep, and I think it’s such a true insight actually, because we’ve got the higher end and the day-to-day end, and that midsection often gets overlooked. And you’ve mentioned a good little list there of some of the soft skills, or I like to call them power skills that kind of become important.

And I think that these are the kinds of skills that are going to help those [00:11:00] leaders feel more equipped. Now if we talk a little bit into the bigger conversation around upskilling and re-skilling during times of change. In our recent survey, 45% of employees said that they know they need to build new skills to adapt, but nearly half also said they’re not getting enough training.

So we’re seeing a theme in the stats here, right? How can we better position upskilling to those at the top, not just as a nice-to-have, but as a core employee engagement strategy during times of transformation. 

Rob Catalano: Yeah. Actually, before I dive in, like one, one last comment on what we were just talking about is I get the luxury of doing not only the measurement on the employee side and the leader side, but I could have conversations and focus groups around, hey, why do you feel this is the sentiment of your employees or leaders? But I talk to leaders all the time, and one of their biggest frustrations is employees go to them as leaders to ask, hey, why is this change happening? Or, what do we think the impact’s gonna be? And leaders don’t even have the answers, right?

If your communication isn’t getting to your [00:12:00] leaders who are driving the day-to-day interactions with your employees, that’s where they feel stuck, right? They feel like they’re not part of the process, and it’s just, it’s so critical to include them because. It trickles down to employee, which back to your question, like L&D as a as a complete strategy or an overarching world I think your strategy is only as good as your execution and if you don’t pair the leaders with the right skill sets to be able to execute, that’s where things are gonna fail. Again, not only through change, but day in and day out. And when things are changing, it requires new mindsets, right? Leaders go into their habits, they do what they used to do that works, but that may not work in today’s new environment, and we didn’t get into all the details of the research, but we talked about change is different. It could be an m and a, it could be a new CEO and leadership approach. It could be a major change in market, product, or the way that you actually bring your service to the world.

So change is always there, but it requires new mindsets in many cases. And I think [00:13:00] companies just they’re not implementing an actual strategy. I think that’s the first part. What is your L&D strategy? What is the objective of it? How do you make space for it? Second is how do you measure what matters, right?

Like how do you actually correlate that data to be able to identify that these L&D skills are critical to driving what’s important to your business? It could be experience, could be engagement, it could be retention. I think the biggest difference in mindset or the how to shift leaders is creating these agile type workflows.

Like talk about change. If you’re sitting leaders in a room for three days and then think that they’re automagically gonna come out and be able to be your best change agents and have all the answers and move the needle everywhere you want to go. That’s not gonna work, right? The L&D strategy has to be agile workflows, access to information right away.

And many companies go down this path without a strategy or a strategy that worked 5, 10, 50 years ago. 

Host: New skills, new mindset. This is it. Now, we often see that [00:14:00] in those instances where upskilling is invested in exactly the situations that we’ve just been discussing. Sometimes it’s treated as a bit of a check-the-box exercise, and you just touched on that as well.

So what can we do? How can employee training programs or upskilling or re-skilling or new skilling be designed in a way that we are not just doing the training, but we’re actually generating lasting emotional engagement? 

Rob Catalano: Yeah. So, um, to, you know, reiterate what I mentioned earlier on the leadership side.

Obviously it’s just making space for it, right? If this isn’t part of a company initiative and goal, something that we are gonna talk about, whether we’re hitting that objective, like that’s the first part is it has to be a vision of what the company finds important, and it’s still that vision into your operating plan, right?

Again, the rhythm and time for it, measurement, et cetera. Second is, If you think about accountability, right? How do you tie that to accountability? Maybe it’s people’s performance metrics, maybe it’s a leader’s performance metrics. How do you tie that people are actually doing [00:15:00] something to something that they’re going to be able to be either completed for or acknowledged for?

That’s kind of a second part. The third is, uh, and I live this world at WorkTango. Another part of our platform is a recognition reward technology. How do you recognize and reward when folks are taking these upskilling initiatives, following the plan that was laid out by the organization? That has a huge impact.

What gets recognized gets repeated. You can reward those types of initiatives, and those rewards are beyond the learning and upskilling that these generations really want in our workplace. But I think a big key, I guess maybe last prescriptive idea is once you do all that, it’s easy for your program to fall off the map.

It’s easy for your strategy to not get the love it deserves, and then it’s all about storytelling. Right? How do you tell a story of someone learning something new, how that was implemented in the business and the impact and ROI it had on the their team or their day or the company? And when people start hearing those stories over and over, it becomes a little more real.

The change is a little less [00:16:00] too far-fetched for them. It’s a little easier to see the forest from the trees. So there’s just some examples of where I’ve seen companies take that strategy and just bring it to life. 

Host: Absolutely love that last point about recognizing that kind of behavior, reinforcing it through example, and also showing the actual output and the outcome and the positive outcome, whether it’s performance, productivity, new way of thinking, a new model that’s been applied.

I think that this is such a strong example and such a strong way to reinforce that behavior. I think it also, it would have an effect both ways, right? It reinforces that behavior for employees who may be thinking about it or not sure if it’s worth the time and effort, but also helps management, leadership and beyond understand the positive impact and actually drive that behavior within their own teams as well.

Rob Catalano: 100%. Like I’m using an exact example from a month ago, right? We as an organization, we’re a [00:17:00] technology company. We’re growing. We’re trying to grapple around what does AI mean to our company, our customers, our employees, and we also have a very specific strategy on L&D. We want people to upskill themselves and have that definition of a good workplace where people can learn and grow. And what we did is we asked employees, we said, listen, we wanna know who’s leveraging AI in their workplace. Presented at the company all hands. We had, I think four people. It’s kinda like a mini hackathon. They went out of their way. They shared what they did.

They screen shared how they built an agent or how they built a GPT or whatever it was. They shared what it did for them. And just that level of storytelling built this confidence in other people to start doing different things and trying different things. We started creating what we call AI workshops, which are just open discussions for some of our champions in the company to be able to ask them, hey, how would you approach this problem I have, or how would you approach something that’s taking me a long period of time?

And we just shared an example of where one of our employees does a bunch of [00:18:00] analysis and these different regression modeling to look at the data from our employees. And that she learn something new. We implemented it and now they’re saving, I think it’s around 10 hours a week, just on that type of analysis.

So again, all the things I mentioned in terms of making it important, building a rhythm, storytelling, making space for it, recognizing those, that all led to some really great things we’re seeing in our business, some that we’ve actually implemented into our product. So just using real examples, like it does have an influence when you make it part of a narrative or an intentional strategy when it comes to your L&D landscape.

Host: Also shows, right, that sometimes the investment of time at the beginning to do some training, a course, knowledge sharing, whatever it might be, the impact in terms of time saved down the track as well, right? So it’s input versus output, and it makes total sense. So you have spoken to feedback being a key engagement tool, on the other hand survey fatigue is real. So [00:19:00] why is this happening? What can companies do to avoid survey fatigue and make this happen in a way that works and makes real sense, and has real benefits? 

Rob Catalano: Yeah, so actually, I mean, getting back to the research that we did, there was this correlation, strong one between transparent communication and employee engagement, satisfaction, and lower stress levels, and a lot of that came to getting feedback through surveys and other conversations.

So I think, it is important, it’s critical. I’ve seen it move the needle on critical HR metrics, but to your point, I, I always like to say there’s no such thing as survey fatigue. It’s lack of action fatigue. Right. At the end of the day, I work with organizations that are getting surveys and pulses from their employee, not every quarter or every month, sometimes every two weeks, sometimes every week.

And that sounds dramatic, and it sounds like a lot of work. But I think the magic is not just measuring things like engagement or their learning experience or DEI, and just thinking about how do you feel it’s shifting it to diagnostic feedback around [00:20:00] what is working, what isn’t? Why is something we implemented working, or even before we launch something, can you give us feedback to make sure when we launch something, it’s gonna hit the mark in terms of what the needs of the employees are.

Survey fatigue is filling out a hundred-question survey, like no one wants to do that. You can ask 10 and get the same results. It’s how do you get measurement and diagnostic feedback across the employee lifecycle right when they first start, over time as well as not just doing it on a monthly basis where people just get into a rhythm and they kinda lose focus or it’s not relevant to what’s happening to the company at the time do it at an ad hoc basis. We’re launching a big training initiative. What do people think about it? We’re launching a new change. How do people react to this? And learning in that world of success being not linear. Where are the gaps? And let’s respond to those gaps. So I think there’s definitely a strategy we call an active listing strategy on how do you make sure there isn’t survey fatigue?

Because employees will give you feedback if there’s a way to [00:21:00] act on it or give leaders the data to have accountability to act on it. 

Host: So frequency of the feedback is one thing, right? But what would you say are the main pitfalls when it comes to the actual data that we’re gathering and the questions and methods that we’re using to get that data?

Rob Catalano: Companies like WorkTango exist because there is a bit of a science and art to how you ask questions or how you get accurate data. So I think that’s a big approach, right? Just opening up the world to just random question sets, and there’s a lot of correlation between different questions and how you measure them and how that drives the output you’re looking for, whether that’s, again, engagement or employee experience.

So I think that’s the front end, right? You have to be asking the right questions to getting the right data, right? That garbage in, garbage out idea that many companies talk about from a data level. So that’s the one part. And then second is to what I mentioned, if you have the right strategy on active listening, diagnostic feedback, now your information’s a lot more relatable. You can do stuff with it. So what we see [00:22:00] is our customers give access to every leader to see the data for their team or department or location or country or whatever it is in real time, so that they become accountable to be able to do something with that. So that’s a second part. The third though, is at the end of the day, the data is more valuable if you can look at it from a, what I call the art of data. So a is absolute data, so we’re gonna talk acronyms here. A is the absolute number. My engagement score is 68. I don’t know if that’s good or bad. We have to get to relative, right? R relative data is that relative to other departments or other locations or other companies out there.

Now, we could see a bit of an understanding is this data relative to something else that says whether it’s positive or negative. And the T is the trend. If it was 48 and went to 68, we’re on the right track. If it was 98, went to 68, something is wrong. So what a lot of companies do is they have the data and then they throw at this absolute number out there, and then it’s kind of useless and they just throw it to [00:23:00] the leadership executives, not to the leaders that can do stuff about it, but when it’s relative, but when it’s trend, now you have the context to be able to do something with it. Last thing I’ll say on the pitfalls and what happens from a data lens is once it’s in the right people’s hands, it’s also really important to be able to slice that data. In ways that help you find value. So for example, if we’re handing the data to a leader of 16 retail stores, they should be able to see the 16 retail stores and compare them.

They should be able to dig deeper in terms of the type of roles within those 16 retail outlets. They should be able to compare those 16 outlets between union and non-union workers, for example. So what we do is we pull data from HIS systems that let you slice it in unlimited ways, and that’s where you start getting, getting those, what I call smoke before fire moments or those really exciting things you wanna replicate in your company. So it’s really about the data visualization and the highlights. But I think that the last thing I’ll say on that, which I think is really exciting, is it’s easy to get paralysis by analysis, right?

You [00:24:00] just get a lot of this data and don’t know what to do. New technology is making so easier to flag those items. AI summaries of what’s working, what isn’t. Maybe the last thing I’ll mention on that, uh, is uh, data from surveys is not just quantitative, right? Some companies get hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands comments.

And uh, we’ve all been there. We read a comment and it’s vague, but really negative, and we can’t really do anything about it. And we also can’t read 16,000 comments. So technology today is helping theme those things, add color to what’s happening, AI analysis on what’s working and what isn’t. But we’ve even more specific to WorkTango, we created ways to have two-way conversations with those employees.

Where they’re still confidential so we can dive deeper into the data. So that’s just an example where data and isolation is useless unless you put in the right people’s hands, you can summarize it better or be able even to interact with it to get more of the right information. So you’re probably gonna regret asking me to go a little deep there, but I got [00:25:00] excited about this topic.

So there are some high-level details on data and questions. 

Host: No, that’s great. I absolutely love it. And I think what’s coming through more and more as we progress through our conversation, which I’m really enjoying by the way, is that importance of that middle level of the company. And by involving them, uh, from the communication stage, even from the strategic stage, making sure that they then have access to the data as well to ensure that they’re able to understand truly what things mean and what matters to their teams, and being able to work in that way. It’s a theme that keeps coming through time and time again. So that’s something that I’m personally taking away from this. What you’ve also really highlighted is the way that we gather feedback can shape what we learn, and it can also obviously shape what we miss.

One thing I guess that you’ve also just touched on, once we do have that insight, the next challenge is really knowing how to act on it. [00:26:00] Autonomy and ownership are such important pieces of any successful strategy for change, and you’ve already mentioned that yourself. What advice do you have for organizations that are trying to strike the right balance. So those organizations that want to guide change in the right direction, let’s say from the top down, but they still want to give their employees the space to truly own it? 

Rob Catalano: Yeah, so I think successful change, I think considers not just the output, but the emotional and psychological needs of employees, right?

What’s the autonomy that they need? What’s the purpose of this change? How do we, how does their wellbeing implement this? Again, you can’t implement the change without those employees, right? So how is it really important for them? And I just think it’s really important to make them part of the process versus being done to them.

We talked a lot about that I think today, around how do they get their feedback heard? How do we not just say what we heard, maybe what we’re doing and what we’re not doing, and here’s why. Like just that level of communication gets people to understand that [00:27:00] their feedback’s really important. With my team, I use this concept called brutal facts from good to great where we talk about, here’s all the problems, what do you think is most important?

Having them prioritize what the company or our team feels like is most important, is being a part of the process. I think when you put humans. You gotta remember, they’re humans before they’re employees, right? When you put humans before the change as, ‘cause they’re a critical part of it, make them part of the process, then it’s not being done to them, it’s being done with them.

And that’s when people are a lot more open to provide feedback to help support that change and champion at the end of the day, I think about it like this transformation is a partnership. Leaders inspire employees, execute, and HR empowers both, but a lot has to happen in unison versus those things happening in pillars and not talking to each other.

Host: Transformation is a partnership. Love it. Before we wrap up today’s conversation, it’s not every day that I get to corner an employee engagement expert, so [00:28:00] naturally we are taking full advantage. We asked our listeners to let us know their organizational change challenges, and we have a listener question for you today.

So you’re ready to be in the hot seat for one last question. 

Rob Catalano: Let’s do it. 

Host: Okay. I’m an HR manager at a small company that’s been restructuring processes and departments to become more digitally agile. One of the biggest changes has been rolling out a new system to keep our records in one place and help us stay on top of compliance.

It’s a smart move for the business, but many people on the front lines feel like it’s slowing them down and taking time away from the parts of the job that they care most about How do I lead this kind of change in a way that helps people feel heard and supported while keeping us moving forward? 

Rob Catalano: Yeah, it’s a great question.

One of the first things I think is communicating the vision for this change, right? The vision is we [00:29:00] want to be able to have this type of impact. We want what success looks like, and unless people know what success is and what that pillar is, it’s really hard for people to grasp the idea behind it.

So I think that’s first is what is the vision? Second is what’s the impact of that vision? We believe we’re gonna be able to save you X time. We are going to save our customers better experiences. When you talk about that, what’s in it for me? Then it becomes something that they can internalize around the impact.

And this really good example of how there was a hotel that was trying to figure out how they build a better experience for the patrons coming in and checking in. They realized it was taking a long time. Their scores were really low, so what they did is they actually started asking the employees what’s wrong with the process.

And they realized that there were things like it takes 15 check boxes to check someone in when there’s a problem. They have no autonomy to solve it. It takes a long time to get a manager in. And they started looking and they realized that if they change the employee experience. That’s gonna impact the customer [00:30:00] experience.

So it’s really easy to communicate to employees. For example, we’re changing your systems because it’s gonna actually reduce the time by 10 x, which helps you be able to focus on other things or to focus on more strategic things or better customer service. So I think that’s a big part of it when you discuss the impact it’s gonna have.

I think that’s really critical. Third is, can you relate it to anything else happening in the organization or in your industry? It’s funny when you’re an organization and it’s a CEO talking or the HR person talking, or the L&D leader talking, some, for some reason they don’t believe you, right? But they will believe a third-party study that said, Hey, like just, there’s other information and data around this.

We’re not just making this up as an example. So I saw, I find that validation part of it is really important, right? Execute, vision of success, impact and validation. And then it becomes that check-in process. So we’re doing this, here’s what’s happening. Before we do it, what feedback do you have? Because guess what?

They have really good ideas, right? They’re probably gonna help you understand a better journey to [00:31:00] success in making them part of that process than just measuring it and adapting as it goes. It sounds complicated, but you hit the nail on the head. You spend a little bit of time upfront just planning for it, being intentional about it, building those feedback loops, you can help get to that end.

And then again, it’s not being done to them. They’re a part of the process. 

Host: Communicate the vision, demonstrate the impact of the vision, validate through some examples or third parties and check in. Rob, it’s been great having you with us today. Thank you for joining us at Talent Talks. I hope you’ve enjoyed it.

I’ve had a blast. 

Rob Catalano: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I love that you and the team do this. It helps, you know, engage and inspire other leaders, and uh, sometimes it’s hard for us to come up for air and just hear what else is going out there. So anyone listening. Appreciate it and I get a lot of value out of it as well, so thank you for having me, really thankful.

Host: Thanks for tuning in. In the next [00:32:00] episode, we’ll be looking at how to create courses that do more than just teach knowledge. You can find talent talks on all podcast platforms. Subscribe now so you don’t miss an episode.

This episode of Talent Talks was brought to you by TalentLMS, the easy-to-use training platform that delivers real business results from day one. Learn more at talentlms.com.

​